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Koudee
Posts:91
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| 05/19/2009 10:47 PM |
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Girls, let me know how you thing about this just so I can get an idea.
I know one day far, far, far from now I'm going to want to marry a girl. Unfortunitley for me, that means I "have to" get her something pricey and shiney.
I don't like this idea. Breaking 2 months pay (maybe even more, I'm gonna be a broke missionary!) to buy her something that blood, and status quo all over it. (if its "clean" it costs me more...=gulp=)
So, I really don't want to buy a diamond. I don't agree with it. And it really isn't all about the money for me.
What do you girls think? |
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JoJo
Posts:1670
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| 05/20/2009 12:18 AM |
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o.k. im not sure... but I think people generally are not getting the meaning behind why you get a girl an expensive ring...
now for "non shallow" girls, you don't have to buy the MOST EXPENSIVE ring out... and most girls wouldn't ask for that...
but, basically the value of the ring states how much you value the girl...
So if you buy her something cheap... don't get angry when she totally stops talking to you or slaps you through the face... cuz it's like your saying "I can't be stuffed getting you something worth more because I quite frankly don't think it's worth the money..."
but i know alot of adults in my life, who have gotten the girl something they could afford at the time, and then a few years later, got her something better, once they've saved up enough money...
Like for me, i don't want a gold ring... I'd prefer white gold or silver because it goes with my skin tone better... and I'd like a diamond, even if it's only a small one... (i don't really care about the size, as long as I can see it with the naked eye...  )
but idk, it would have to be something you talked over with your future wife, cuz you'd have to understand what she thinks about it. but as far as I know, it doesn't have to be a diamond...
and if you maybe explain to her why you don't want to buy a diamond... she might understand... but in all honesty, the girl will be pretty offended if you don't wanna buy something just cuz it's too expensive... it's honestly like telling her you value your money over her...
idk what do you others think? |
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Turn up the music
Turn it up loud
Take a few chances
Let it all out
'Cause you won't regret it
Lookin' back from where you have been
'Cause it's not who you knew
And it's not what you did
It's how you live
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
God Bless!
Mwah XOXO
JoJo |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/20/2009 12:52 AM |
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Oh boy, here we go. First off, Koudee, kudos for being intelligent. Secondly, I'm going to say something that, while true, will seem entirely radical and will probably anger a lot of the girls. Here we go.
The practice of a man giving a woman an engagement ring, as it stands, is a harmful practice playing off of natural female vanity and is completely devaluing to men.
Now, you might wonder why I would say such a thing against a well-established, societally accepted and endorsed practice. Well, logic, for one. Jojo, you are responding from the cultural female point of view (meaning, having grown up in the culture you have, you have been taught since birth that this practice is "just done"). Think about it from the male point of view. We fall in love with a girl, get down on one knee, tell her that we have fallen so completely and helplessly in love with her that we can't bear to live without her, that we want to spend the rest of our lives devoted to her and her happiness, and we ask if she would do us the honor of joining her life to ours, and that's not good enough without a functionless, useless piece of stone. When you think about it, it's highly degrading. It's saying we guys aren't good enough. Why should a ring be the indicator how much a guy loves a girl? Why isn't his loving you, being dedicated to you and proposing to you a good indicator?
Or, think about it mathematically. I have often asked girls, "Ok, you get a ring, what does he get?" The response is always, without fail, "He gets her!" This is not only insulting but nigh on immoral. To say that the two are equal is to set up an equation like this: man + ring = woman. Now, if you subtract the ring, you are left with this: man < woman. Man is of lesser value than woman. That is the underlying premise of this whole thing. To say that a guy has to get you a ring or you will be even the slightest bit disappointed in him is to say he, by himself, isn't good enough. It's selfish, shallow and vain. Yes, even a girl who doesn't want the most expensive ring. Her expecting anything other than him still falls into this.
Of course, since this practice is so ingrained in our society, and no one ever questions it, there will undoubtedly be some objections. Bear in mind, something being "normal" and "accepted" has nothing to do with whether it's helpful or moral. I will now address the most popular objections.
First, and perhaps most popular, a ring is supposed to be an outward, physical sign that a woman is “taken.” The ring is supposed to ward off potential suitors, essentially. To this I ask, why is a physical sign necessary? How did she act when she didn’t have a ring before they were engaged? The implication in the reasoning of the argument for the physical sign is that without the ring she would act different. Does this then mean that women are so naturally weak that they inherently lack any fidelity that without some outward sign to ward off suitors they would easily cheat? I hope and pray this is not true. If it is not true, if a woman would ward off suitors on her own, then why is the physical sign necessary? This is especially poignant considering the man gets no sign; but more on that later.
The second objection is that it gives a woman something to brag about and show her girlfriends. This shows an inappropriate focus on the woman’s part, and a fundamental lack of respect for the man. Why is she bragging about the ring and not him? Why does the ring seem to have the value and not the man who laid bare his soul in an attempt to gain her hand? She should be bragging about him. She should be excited about getting to spend the rest of her life with him; not some piece of rock.
Lastly, the objection is made that a ring is a sign of his love and commitment to her. This is perhaps the most ridiculous objection of them all. Was his being perhaps the most vulnerable he could ever be, laying bare his soul, expressing how he loves her so completely he can’t possibly imagine living without her not enough of a sign for her? Is that not enough of a symbol? Again, there is an inappropriate assignment of worth, and he again gets less than he deserves.
What then is the solution to this quandary? One of two possibilities. First, do away with the practice altogether. This would hopefully allow for and influence women to put all of their focus where it should be: on the man she is going to marry. The other possibility is to start giving the man a symbol as well. This would actually add meaning to the practice, and it wouldn’t be a pocket-lining ploy playing on what appears to be female vanity. But what would the symbol be for a man? This is an illuminating quandary, as the reason it is so hard to answer this questions is because our culture, in this arena, is so focused on women that we easily know what they want, but we have not at all focused on the man and therefore we don’t know what he wants.
"but, basically the value of the ring states how much you value the girl..." Logically speaking, if we agree that the genders are equal, the inverse of your statement should also be true. But the girl buys the guy nothing. So, according to your reasoning, guys have no value. You might respond that the practice is for girls and girls alone, and I ask why? Why should guys receive no symbol? As stated, if the "symbol" is only for one gender when dealing with an issue that equally effects both genders, it's not really a symbol at all. It's vanity.
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/20/2009 1:01 AM |
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Basically, when I propose to a girl, I want her to excited only about marrying me. My worth should in no way be judged by if I bought her something. It's not about not wanting to spend money on her (because by this point I'll most likely have spent thousands on her [as she will hopefully have on me]). It's about wanting her to want me just for me, and me alone.
Girls, think about it this way. How would you feel if the dowry was still an accepted practice (it might in some places, but not in most of western civilization)? If a guy expected your family to pay him to marry you, if your worth was, even if only slightly, judged by his receiving a dowry (particularly a large dowry, because, as Jojo stated, a small dowry would mean you didn't care about him), would that not feel devaluing? Well, sadly enough, the dowry is still an accepted practice - except it's switched genders and the dowry is now called a ring. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/20/2009 1:04 AM |
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One more thing, I'm talking only about the engagement ring, not the wedding rings. As the wedding rings are still given to both genders, they still maintain their meaning.
Though, while we're on the subject of this sort of thing, anyone ever notice how sexist weddings are? The entire thing is focused on the woman. Traditionally, she gets to plan most of it, she gets her own song, her own outfit, everyone stands when she comes in, it's commonly referred to as "her day," etc. Screw that. It's our day too, and we should receive more respect in the process. You might think that guys simply don't want to help plan or that we don't care. That's true, but not valid. The reason it's true is society has taught us to not want to help and to allot the woman more worth than ourselves. It's so defunct as to almost be funny if it wasn't so sad. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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JoJo
Posts:1670
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| 05/20/2009 5:25 AM |
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LOL that was a long reply
but yeah I get what you're saying (i was actually reffering to like wedding rings in general, mainly cuz my mum had a 3 part ring... engagement, wedding and 1st year... they all actually intertwined into each other...) Im glad you brought up the subject of the dowry... i was trying to think of a guy example, but yeah... it was kinda hard...
I think the ring is also to say that you care enough about the girl (IE it shows her family that you'd do anything for her, hence her dad actually letting her marry you...)
but idk... it's just a thought...
Mainly weddings are female focused because... Girls have been planning their weddings since they were like 5.... it's practically all they ever think about (well kinda )
Like for me, I already know who my bridesmaids are gonna be, what type of cars we'll be arriving/departing in, that my host sister will be singing, that my bridesmaids are all wearing purple and the flowergirls wearing pink. I want white roses at my wedding... etc
You get the point... we've been planning it for practically our whole lives. of course details will slightly change for the actual wedding... cuz of course, the guy has to agree with most of it... (and after helping my friend, who I am the maid of honour for... plan her wedding, i actually don't know why the guys actually want to be involved in the planning, it's so flippin complicated, and is making me actually not look forward to doing my own, cuz there are SO MANY things to take into consideration... I so never thought it would be that hard...)
and i don't think it's meant to make you feel less worth anything... i think it's because woman have been so devalued for practically all of history, basically treated like items to own, not like partners through thick and thin... also, you have to remember, girls are really insecure, and often need to be reminded that they're loved, cuz the slightest thing can totally crush her self esteem (mainly because of the way woman have been treated over the years...) but yes, I think we should be equal... so guys, don't expect to have your wife looking after the kids 24/7 while you go off golfing with ur mates and leave her to do the cooking and house work all by herself, and girls, don't expect the guy to wait on you hand and foot, and to buy you everything... yes, guy's should be the "man", the protector and girls should be the "woman", the comforter, but we were made in God's image, and we are made to walk side by side with our life partner (ie spouse) no one needs to lead, no one needs to follow...
yeah it is kinda sad that the guy doesn't get anything... and i dont know why he doesn't, honest I don't. but i think a ring has something to do with the "emotional" side of the girl (correct me if I'm wrong lady's... I'm just guessing...) and guys should know, that if a girl (any decent girl) says yes to you...she gives herself totally to you, she's never gonna not include you in anything, she's always gonna try to be the best wife she can be, and she'll be behind you 100% (as long as you're right... like if you killed someone, then she might not be on your side...)
I heard a saying once... It's the guys that go out and do battle, but it's the girls who stay behind, giving emotional support and praying for the safety of all. (and cooking the food, so the guys don't starve hahahaha) but... that doesn't mean girls can't do guy stuff too... but that's a side issue... |
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Turn up the music
Turn it up loud
Take a few chances
Let it all out
'Cause you won't regret it
Lookin' back from where you have been
'Cause it's not who you knew
And it's not what you did
It's how you live
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
God Bless!
Mwah XOXO
JoJo |
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JoJo
Posts:1670
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| 05/20/2009 5:34 AM |
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Oh and another thing... society still doesn't value woman enough...
like men think they can just take advantage of any girl they wish to, and that it's o.k.
Since when is it o.k. to devalue girls like that... girls need reassurance that this guy (who wants to marry them) actually is in it forever, not just a "I'll marry you till im done with you, then, cya, I'm off to hook up with your friend who just got dumped" and the girl is left completely devistated (not saying all guys are lik this...) but these days, how many kids come from single parent homes??? alot more than 50% and about 90% of those single parent families are run by a woman... cuz stupid scumbag guys just ditch them... (sorry I'm not trying to offend, but quite a few of my friends have had that happen to them, and i think it's dispicable! men should flippin take responsibility for their family. it actually makes girls think the man isn't much of a man if he up's and goes, cuz she's left doing 2 jobs..... and he can't even handle one...)
but... that was also a side issue...
and in all honesty... any girl would just be stoked you got her a ring... not that it was a dolce and gabbana ring, (or the appropriate equivilant...) plus, it would kinda be rediculous if a guy wore the same kinda ring... (but it would kinda be like a girl proposing to the guy with a cruddy old car...or a sports car...) plus, do you really want the girl being the "manly one who makes all the decisions and takes charge of everything, and has to be the one popping the question and buying the item" IDK but from what I've heard from the guys on here, they want to be the man, they want to take charge, they want to be the persuer... correct me if I'm wrong...
but yeah... it's quite interesting, I had actually never thought of that stuff david. it's good to make us think... cuz you're right, it's such a common practise that i don't think many of us stop to ask why. |
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Turn up the music
Turn it up loud
Take a few chances
Let it all out
'Cause you won't regret it
Lookin' back from where you have been
'Cause it's not who you knew
And it's not what you did
It's how you live
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
God Bless!
Mwah XOXO
JoJo |
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emilyjanelle
Posts:510
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| 05/20/2009 8:25 AM |
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Though, while we're on the subject of this sort of thing, anyone ever notice how sexist weddings are? The entire thing is focused on the woman. Traditionally, she gets to plan most of it, she gets her own song, her own outfit, everyone stands when she comes in, it's commonly referred to as "her day," etc. Screw that. It's our day too, and we should receive more respect in the process. You might think that guys simply don't want to help plan or that we don't care. That's true, but not valid. The reason it's true is society has taught us to not want to help and to allot the woman more worth than ourselves. It's so defunct as to almost be funny if it wasn't so sad.
well, wait...I'm a little confused here...
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. - Eph. 5:25-30
from what Jojo said, preparing a wedding is HARD. guys, please just admit it, do you want to plan a wedding? there are SO many details it's not even funny. don't kid yourselves. Jojo had a great point that, for crying out loud, we've been planning it since we were 8 years old!
but anyway, about the original topic. seriously? man = pursuer. woman = pursued. I ain't buyin' him no ring. and, get real, it's not because I "devalue" him or anything like that. blanket statements like that get nobody no where.
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. - Gen. 2:24
it doesn't say "a women shall leave her father and mother", does it? it says the man does. the man does the leaving, the pursuing, the asking, and the buying of the ring. |
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You may as well come quiet.
- Police Maxim |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/20/2009 11:43 AM |
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"I think the ring is also to say that you care enough about the girl (IE it shows her family that you'd do anything for her, hence her dad actually letting her marry you...)"
I suppose this is what I'm getting at. Why should it? Why is his proposal and willingness to spend the rest of his life loving you not enough of a sign that he cares?
"Mainly weddings are female focused because... Girls have been planning their weddings since they were like 5.... it's practically all they ever think about (well kinda )
Like for me, I already know who my bridesmaids are gonna be, what type of cars we'll be arriving/departing in, that my host sister will be singing, that my bridesmaids are all wearing purple and the flowergirls wearing pink. I want white roses at my wedding... etc
You get the point... we've been planning it for practically our whole lives. of course details will slightly change for the actual wedding... cuz of course, the guy has to agree with most of it... (and after helping my friend, who I am the maid of honour for... plan her wedding, i actually don't know why the guys actually want to be involved in the planning, it's so flippin complicated, and is making me actually not look forward to doing my own, cuz there are SO MANY things to take into consideration... I so never thought it would be that hard...)"
Yes, planning weddings are hard. But what will you do if your future husband wants different cars, different music, and doesn't want to get married with such "girly" colors? For me personally, I want to have a say in all parts of the wedding. In fact, I want the wedding itself to be an indicator of our future marriage in that we are able to effectively compromise when there are disagreements.
"and i don't think it's meant to make you feel less worth anything... i think it's because woman have been so devalued for practically all of history, basically treated like items to own, not like partners through thick and thin..."
You need to read the excellent book The Myth of Male Power, by Warren Farrel.
"also, you have to remember, girls are really insecure, and often need to be reminded that they're loved, cuz the slightest thing can totally crush her self esteem (mainly because of the way woman have been treated over the years...)"
Do you remember in FYWO when they talked about how easily you can crush a guy? We need that reassurance too, yet no physical sign if allotted for us.
"but yes, I think we should be equal... so guys, don't expect to have your wife looking after the kids 24/7 while you go off golfing with ur mates and leave her to do the cooking and house work all by herself, and girls, don't expect the guy to wait on you hand and foot, and to buy you everything... yes, guy's should be the "man", the protector and girls should be the "woman", the comforter, but we were made in God's image, and we are made to walk side by side with our life partner (ie spouse) no one needs to lead, no one needs to follow..."
I might push back a little on the issue of leadership (based on the Bible), but just because one gender might be the "leader" doesn't not devalue the other gender.
"yeah it is kinda sad that the guy doesn't get anything... and i dont know why he doesn't, honest I don't. but i think a ring has something to do with the "emotional" side of the girl (correct me if I'm wrong lady's... I'm just guessing...) and guys should know, that if a girl (any decent girl) says yes to you...she gives herself totally to you, she's never gonna not include you in anything, she's always gonna try to be the best wife she can be, and she'll be behind you 100% (as long as you're right... like if you killed someone, then she might not be on your side...)"
The reason we don't get anything is because, at least in the romantic realm, there has been no focus put on the guys needs or desires. Thus, our culture has developed to be what it is. Why does a ring have anything to do with your emotional side? Again, why is his proposal and wanting to spend the rest of his life with you not enough?
"like men think they can just take advantage of any girl they wish to, and that it's o.k."
While being true of some, this is not true of the majority. We're the gender who, by and large, wants to kick the crap out of anyone who takes advantage of you.
"Since when is it o.k. to devalue girls like that... girls need reassurance that this guy (who wants to marry them) actually is in it forever, not just a "I'll marry you till im done with you, then, cya, I'm off to hook up with your friend who just got dumped" and the girl is left completely devistated (not saying all guys are lik this...)"
Most guys do not mean this when they propose (any more than most girls mean it when they accept... that sort of behavior definitely goes both ways). And again, why is ring such an indicator, why is his word not good enough? It seems to show a fundamental lack of trust in him.
"but these days, how many kids come from single parent homes??? alot more than 50% and about 90% of those single parent families are run by a woman... cuz stupid scumbag guys just ditch them... (sorry I'm not trying to offend, but quite a few of my friends have had that happen to them, and i think it's dispicable! men should flippin take responsibility for their family. it actually makes girls think the man isn't much of a man if he up's and goes, cuz she's left doing 2 jobs..... and he can't even handle one...)"
Now this I have to completely disagree with. There are many things in our culture that are sexist towards woman, and many things that are sexist towards men (of course, only one gender gets any acknowledgment of suffering sexism). One of the things that is incredibly sexist against men is custody. The reason so many of the homes are mother-led is because the courts will rarely give custody to the father, even if he is the blatantly better choice. I have a very good friend who has been in a horrible relationship for the last few years, and they have a child together. He makes all of the money, takes care of the kid, cooks, cleans, does laundry, runs the house, gets the kids to school, etc, while she goes out and does drugs and parties and comes home and screams at him all day. He wants to leave her (and needs to) but won't because he knows that he'll never see his kid again. The courts will never grant him custody. This is a huge problem in our society and happens frequently. Yes, men sometimes do just up and leave and are worthy of the title scumbag. But, more often, society is against us, even when we want to be good fathers.
"and in all honesty... any girl would just be stoked you got her a ring... not that it was a dolce and gabbana ring, (or the appropriate equivilant...)"
Why? Why is he not good enough alone? You can say that that isn't an insinuation, but it is. Just look at the math.
"plus, it would kinda be rediculous if a guy wore the same kinda ring... (but it would kinda be like a girl proposing to the guy with a cruddy old car...or a sports car...)"
That is not an absolute truth (meaning, a real truth). That is a cultural truth (meaning, a truth that has developed because our culture has developed as it has, not because it's actually true).
"plus, do you really want the girl being the "manly one who makes all the decisions and takes charge of everything, and has to be the one popping the question and buying the item" IDK but from what I've heard from the guys on here, they want to be the man, they want to take charge, they want to be the persuer... correct me if I'm wrong..."
I've never said anything about who does the proposing. I've always said the guy should. What I'm talking about is her expectation for a proposal. I think she should just want him, and not a ring. I think he should be enough.
"from what Jojo said, preparing a wedding is HARD. guys, please just admit it, do you want to plan a wedding? there are SO many details it's not even funny. don't kid yourselves. Jojo had a great point that, for crying out loud, we've been planning it since we were 8 years old!"
Yes, I want to plan a wedding. Yes, I know its hard. But its my day too. Just because you've been planning it for so long doesn't mean it should be mostly your deal to plan. Even if we never thought about it up until the planning process, we still have every right to be a part of it, because its our day too. However, it's very possible that men have thought about their weddings for quite a long time as well, we just can't admit it because it's not "manly." We would think it would make you think we are too girly. But I'll admit, I've been thinking about my wedding for a long time.
"but anyway, about the original topic. seriously? man = pursuer. woman = pursued. I ain't buyin' him no ring. and, get real, it's not because I "devalue" him or anything like that. blanket statements like that get nobody no where."
As I said to Jojo, I've never said anything about who is pursuing. I think the man should be the initial pursuer, but I think the girl should also pursue him as well. We deserve to know that you want us. But also, if a woman wants a man to be the pursue, to take initiative and be the leader, she needs to let him be the leader. Too many woman want him to pursue and then want him to obey. That's just control. In Genesis, when God is talking about how things are going to change after they've eaten the fruit, he says something to the woman like, "Your desire will be for you husband." A proper interpretation of that is that woman's desire will be to control her husband.
Also, how is "she should present him with a physical sign" a blanket statement when "he should present her with a physical sign" not?
"it doesn't say "a women shall leave her father and mother", does it? it says the man does. the man does the leaving, the pursuing, the asking, and the buying of the ring."
I'm still struggling as to how "buying the ring" can be taken from that verse... It seems to have been tacked on just to fit societal norms.
I mean no offense to either of you, so I hope I haven't sounded too harsh. And I do appreciate each of your willingness to engage in this discussion, as most woman just get angry and stomp off. It's an issue I've become passionate about, though, as it really is quite devaluing to men, even if women don't mean it as such. We just want to we wanted for ourselves, and not for any ring we buy you. The ring shouldn't be a factor in your desire for us or decision making process in marrying us (but if you are at all disappointed by no ring, it is a factor). The best solution is that, culturally, we should institute a symbol for the man as well.
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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Adelynn
Posts:189
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| 05/20/2009 1:34 PM |
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Here's my .02$
A long, long time ago, there were these rings that were really three bands, and when a couple became engaged, they each kept one band, and a minister or parent kept the third band until the wedding day. This, I think, is a brilliant idea, and I'm sad that it doesn't seem to be popular any more. But now, in the present day, it's all about having a bigger wedding, bigger flowers and dresses and rings than your best friend... I'm certainly not condoning it, but that would seem to be why the obscenely large stones seem to be the norm.
I think, if I ever become engaged, I would want a ring. A tiny one, but that's my personality. I think I would want to go "ring shopping," though, so that I like the ring and so we can both get rings, and so I can get the right size- even my parents get me the wrong size rings, because my fingers are so small =] It just seems special. I love seeing my mom's old rings, and my great-grandmothers wedding and engagement rings. I wouldn't want one because he "owns" me or because I'll stop flirting (haha, no problem there...), it just seems like a nice symbol of our commitment to be married. Diamonds are forever, and all that.
I agree with Jojo in that a cheap ring that obviously cost you nothing in time, effort, money or all of the above, would mean less, simply because anything that you don't invest in is less important. That doesn't mean that it has to be ostentatious or expensive, though, and the whole blood diamond should be a big factor, imho. But, everyone obviously has their own opinion of why it's important or not... |
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"... I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy..." Acts 2.17
What If His People Prayed? |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/20/2009 1:47 PM |
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I suppose one question I don't feel has been adequately answered by the girls is why is there a connection between our buying you a ring and our love for you? Where did this connection come from? And, for the upteenth time, why is our proposal and wanting to spend the rest of our lives with you not enough of a sign for you? Please answer.
I appreciate Adelynn's idea of going ring shopping. What this means is that when he proposes there is no ring, thus freeing the girl to say yes simply based on him. Of course, the expectation of a ring might still be an issue, but only if the girl is the only one receiving a physical symbol. The three ring idea is interesting and meaningful because both genders are given a ring. What should happen is while out ring shopping you should also be shopping for something for him to symbolize your love and commitment to him, and that should have been the expectation all along. Why don't we get a symbol? It's not about who pursues who (though, as I said earlier, while the guy should initiate, both should pursue [there are some related issues to this in some of the things girls said in FYMO]), but about there being an actual symbol of love and commitment. If both parties are loving and committing, both parties should receive a symbol. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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Adelynn
Posts:189
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| 05/20/2009 3:59 PM |
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| I guess I've never thought of a ring as the exchange of love for a ring... more as just a something given as a commitment to be married |
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"... I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy..." Acts 2.17
What If His People Prayed? |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/20/2009 4:02 PM |
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I suppose the feeling for me is that when I propose, she'll be disappointed if I don't get her a ring. That means my proposal wasn't enough for her, she had to have something else in addition. It means that I'm not good enough for her.
If giving the ring is really "something given as a commitment to be married," why doesn't the guy get anything? Are we, through our being the only ones who give the "symbol of commitment," the only ones who are supposed to be committed? |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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JoJo
Posts:1670
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| 05/20/2009 9:17 PM |
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Yeah I get where you're coming from, and I honestly dont know the answer, I can just try to guess what it could be....
But I've also talked with a few guy friends about the issue, but they said
"Ew... why would I want a ring like that to wear on my finger, my friends would think I was gay or something..."
there were some other things said, but I won't put that on here (not that it was bad... just kinda off topic...)
oh and one girl friend said "If a guy doesn't want to get me ring cuz he feels it's not fair on guys and is making a protest about it... Id be pretty peeved off and probably wouldn't accept his proposal, cuz it's like he cares more about settling the score, that we should be equal, and not caring about how I feel at all..."
but that's just what she said...
and yeah, I'd be fine with going ring shopping... but remember, not all girls are like that, and most would be infuriated if there was no ring... (idk why... like I said, I'd just be happy he got me something... didn't matter when... and yes, i'd like to choose my own ring, so that it fitted me and wasn't too expensive... I actually can't stand it when people spend heaps of money on me...)
haha one friend said she hated guys buying her stuff, that she'd buy it for herself... so I guess if you didn't want to buy her the ring, she might just buy it herself, but that kinda sucks, cuz then you'd have to say "Oh... i bought my own wedding ring..." and then who knows what everyone else would think of that...
haha, i just thought I'd throw in those thoughts so y'all could think about them |
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Turn up the music
Turn it up loud
Take a few chances
Let it all out
'Cause you won't regret it
Lookin' back from where you have been
'Cause it's not who you knew
And it's not what you did
It's how you live
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
God Bless!
Mwah XOXO
JoJo |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/20/2009 9:38 PM |
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I'm not suggesting getting a guy a diamond ring. Culturally, those are feminine. We would need another physical symbol.
No offense, but your friend sounds pretty selfish. It sounds to me like she wants a guy who is a doormat - someone who will always bow to her will. Right is right, wrong is wrong, and disrespect is disrespect, no matter what we say. Why doesn't she care enough about a guy to want to get him something to show her devotion to him? Why must he be the only one to do so for her?
Truth be told, I'll probably buy a ring. However, by the time I propose I'm sure she'll know about how I feel about this issue. I hope to find a girl who wants me for me enough that that makes her happy enough.
On the somewhat abstract: just because everybody believes something as normal and good does not make it so. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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Adelynn
Posts:189
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| 05/20/2009 10:16 PM |
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yeah, definitely it would be weird to see a guy with a diamond ring... but just a silver band of some kind (or gold, w/e).
I guess it's nice to feel special, and I'm a gift person, so getting gifts makes me feel special... but I don't know, I don't think rings should be a big deal because it's a ring, but because of what it stands for.
"just because everybody believes something as normal and good does not make it so."
Yeah, David, I guessed that was what you were trying to get at *smile* |
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"... I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy..." Acts 2.17
What If His People Prayed? |
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Koudee
Posts:91
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| 05/20/2009 11:41 PM |
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I have no problem getting her something. My question is does it have to be a diamond? I want to be more imaginitive, and I'm sure if I tried hard enough I could get something of lesser "value" but more meaning.
Lets say I somehow come across a opel ring while I am traveling and doing missionary work. Maybe I found it, or something.
Lets say that I carried that ring for years and waited to give that ring to my beloved because that ring ment a lot to me.
doesn't that count for something? |
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JoJo
Posts:1670
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| 05/21/2009 2:39 AM |
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Oh yeah I remembered what I wanted to say b4... about single parent families.... just cuz I was defending the female side, doesn't mean Im against the men being the single parent, as... My own dad is one... and I kinda feel a little sad that people assume that I dont support men being the single parent, as my dad does the most AMAZING job ever, and because of this... and how my dad is such an awesome Godly man, I kinda expect my future husband to be like that. (not unrealistic, because my actual dad can do it, so others should be able to do it too...)
Oh and also... he's a single parent cuz my mother actually passed away, and without dad holding us together, i donno where we'd be. Also my brother's gf lives with her dad. and he's done a pretty good job with her too...
With that aside...
now which friend was the comment about, 1 or 2, cuz I can't explain what she was meaning, unless I know which one you don't understand... cuz the way both of them said it... it didn't come accross at all like she wants a doormat...
As to Koudee... I dont think it HAS to be a diamond... and if any girl only expects a diamond, that's wrong... it's the thought that counts, and as you've described... the ring you say you might have bought (being in the situation you described) would be 100% fine in my oppinion... Like I honestly don't care if I don't get a diamond, cuz... well, i've inherited all my mum's ones, so I dont really need another one...
And i think it goes the same for if a guy is giving her his mother's ring (as long as he wasn't using it as an excuse just to get out of buying a ring )
(unfortunately my bro cant give his gf my mum's one, cuz... it's mine )
but like if it has sentimental value etc, i'd have no prob with it (as long as it wasn't like something id NEVER wear... and i know that sounds harsh, but i mean, any gift you get, if you'd never wear it... it's kinda like ur obliged to wear it, and you don't really want that for ur future spouse...)
idk if I made that clear, I'm trying to so people get what I mean, but sometimes it's hard to lol
but it's good that the debate (of sorts...) has come up, cuz now it's making me think about stuff...
but one question... if the guy proposes, and he gives the ring... the girl cant exactly give him something that exact moment, cuz... well... she didn't exactly know he was gonna propose... so how would she go about giving him something... Just wondering  (like when would be appropriate?) |
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Turn up the music
Turn it up loud
Take a few chances
Let it all out
'Cause you won't regret it
Lookin' back from where you have been
'Cause it's not who you knew
And it's not what you did
It's how you live
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
God Bless!
Mwah XOXO
JoJo |
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Nicole
Posts:552
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| 05/21/2009 4:00 AM |
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| Wow. I almost feel like we opened a can of worms here. For the most part I always thought of an engagement ring as sort of traditional and to show that, yes, the woman was taken. I personally would like a ring, but i know it doesn't symbolize my husband-to-be love for me. not at all. I think it's a great idea for the man to have a sort of an "engagement ring" like the 3 band idea. David, I like your quote about what everyone else thinks is right doesn't make it so. I feel that way a lot of times. Koudee, I'm al for not following the norm most of the time. So if you found a beautiful opal ring that had significance to it, then let your fiancé know and she'll appreciate it. I don't think you necessarily have to spend a 2 month salary check on a single engagement ring; if your grandmother has a beautiful sapphire and diamond engagement ring that she wore when she got engaged and she's willing to part with it, go for it. Right there you have value (gorgeous heirloom) and it didn't cost you a cent. Girls do love stuff like that, or at least i do. For the record, no, it does not have to be a diamond ring, I think i'd rather like something different for a change. |
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whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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Adelynn
Posts:189
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| 05/21/2009 8:29 AM |
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| Yes, Cody, that would be really special, as would your grandmother's ring, if she was willing to give it up. Usually they mean a lot, so she might not want to give it up... |
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"... I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy..." Acts 2.17
What If His People Prayed? |
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